7 responses so far ↓

• 1 Julie N // Oct 29, 2007 at 7:34 pm

  Steve, was going to send you a separate email but thought I would write something here.

  Great talk on Sunday - as always challenging but so good to be real about the issues we all face. Thanks.

• 2 Admin 01 (Dave Gray) // Oct 29, 2007 at 9:56 pm

  Thanks Julie, I like your thinking and I know this is the sort of thing Steve want to encourage people to do.

  Ultimately it would be great to see people creating discussion and talk here and then continue that in person.

  Thanks for thinking to post it here

  While I am at it; I tried a few things with the podcast this week - I have the file under 10 meg (8 actually!) with no reduction in quality. Be great to hear what people think.

• 3 Bevan the Polar Bear G // Oct 30, 2007 at 1:25 am

  Steve,
  Just some quick questions (yeah,right) and observations:
  1. I’ve a suspicion that the degree to which we repond to God’s mercy may be determined by the extent to which we are awed by his forgiveness (”not much - forgiven little”). For me this means returning to the cross more often in order to understand just how merciful God has been;
  2. Interesting that Paul writes “bodies”. Kind of harks back to Romans 6:12-14 … ie. not misusing the physical bits (yes, that’s the anatomical term. maybe.) to dishonour God;
  3. Why does my translation talk about “rational service” in place of “spiritual worship”? (end of 12:1).
  4. There is no point 4.
  5. Aren’t our hearts being renewed by God’s Spirit, and not our minds (eg. Ezekiel 36:26-27)? In other words, given our thinking is determined by our priorities and motives, isn’t it more useful to metamorphose our attitude to serving God first, and then this will change our thinking, leading to right emotions and right behaviour? All my soaking up of God’s Word doesn’t spill over into action if my heart does not desire to give myself daily to Jesus.
  6. Last one, hence feel at ease, teacher. In our Bible study group, we noticed that there is no mind transformation without looking into God’s Word as much and as hard-working as possible. This really does fly in the face of our culture, which seems to have shifted to one that has no concept of delayed gratification. (eg. want LCD TV now instead of saving up for it for 2 years). I am guilty of conforming to this pattern lately. So for us as Christians, there is no instant rapid transformation, but years of reading and re-reading, studing, grappling, memorizing, proddng each other and singing to each other the Bible. Hard work! Wish there was a small colour leaflet entitled “Quick 5 minute checklist - is this God’s Will?”.

• 4 Peter Yock // Oct 31, 2007 at 1:52 am

  In response to Sunday’s talk and further reflection on Romans 12:1-2 I’ve been particularly challenged about how much I fill my mind with ’stuff’ - often good stuff, but good stuff that’s the enemy of the BEST stuff - if you know what I mean. I’m talking about things like surfing the internet - often Christian websites - instead of calling one of my brothers in Christ to catch up; or getting really stuck into a Christian book, while not spending half as much time reading the Bible. It’s funny how easy it is to think you’re doing good things while actually neglecting better things. At this point I’d like to add my “AMEN” to Bevan’s 6th point!

• 5 Mitch // Oct 31, 2007 at 4:22 pm

  I am struggling with similar things to you Peter, I was just talking about it with my Small Group last night. I want at least a good proportion of my leisure/relaxing time to be spent building things that will last forever.

  It’s scary writing things on here… I worry cos they can’t be erased… what if after I press submit I realise I have made a fool of myself. Oh well I do that all the time!

• 6 Steve Cree // Nov 1, 2007 at 9:22 am

  Great to see everyone’s comments, particularly all the real engagement with application of what we’re learning together in God’s Word.

  I did want to quickly respond to a couple of Bevan’s points and questions. Yes, I think “forgiven much” are two words that we could feast on for transformed lives. And yes, yes, yes… these verses point us to a long process of struggle and work (albeit in God’s strength and all underpinned by his mercy) rather than ‘instant spirituality’.

  Regarding ‘bodies’, refer also Paul’s description of sin in Romans 1:24 “degrading of their bodies”. So it’s worth re-reading Romans 1 as we consider what the new use of bodies bought by Christ might look like (i.e. what are the opposites of the description there - and see also how that lines up with Romans 12-16). It’s interesting also (in terms of your question re hearts and minds) that 1:24 uses “hearts”… but notice 1:21 - “their THINKING became foolish and their foolish HEARTS were darkened”. I take it that Paul is comfortable interchanging hearts and minds. The key to it all is definitely the Spirit changing hearts/renewing minds (and the sort of Old Testament background you point to). I think Romans 2:28-29 are undervalued as key verses to Romans - the new way of the Spirit through Jesus, which redefines in him the true people of God, true worship, etc.

  Finally, on “rational service” vs “spiritual worship” in Rom 12:2. The greek word logikos can be translated ‘rational’ or ‘logical’ or ‘reasonable’ - it has that meaning (and that fits with “in view of God’s mercy” i.e. “it only make sense…”). The only other instance of this ‘logikos’ in the New Testament is translated “spiritual” - the spiritual milk of 1 Peter 2:22. The context there shows that while the word originated with a sense of ‘logic’ - it also describes an engagement of the mind/heart not just in ‘brain’ reason (although not less than reason). So we come full circle to the heart/mind discussion - it’s about what we might cal heart thinking or spiritual thinking…. so I quite like the ’spiritual worship’ translation.

• 7 Jillian // Nov 1, 2007 at 1:38 pm

  It’s great reading everyone’s comments! Bevan I too love your 6th point! It’s great to be reminded that we’ll continually be learning from God in His word, for the rest of our lives!

  It’s also a great challenge to be reminded that the transformation process won’t be fully complete until heaven and so we need to keep letting God transform us by the renewing of our minds! We need to keep reading the Word and speaking it to each other in love, as God’s Spirit transforms us to be more like Jesus.
  Bevan, if you ever get hold of that colour leaflet…I’d love a copy!

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