SCPC Podcast: Got Questions Talk 10, I’m Happy and Content, Why Do I Need God?
Steve Cree spoke to us from Luke 12:13-21. At the heart of the universe is not “I-ness” but “other-ness”– we were created in God’s image to be other-focused, as God is within himself: loving God and loving our neighbour. But you can’t do one without the other – without God we are ultimately loveless: the “but I’m happy” mantra is actually the problem Christ came to rescue us from – to save us from ourselves. A focus on our contentment blinds us to the needs of others and the fact that we will one day face God who made us for a much bigger life than that.
Bible Readings: Luke 12:13-21
Outline:
1. more to this life… than I
2. more to this life… than this life
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Hi Steve,
Thanks for the talk. I would also be surprised to find people who were genuinly happy and content, as I think they would be a minority.
Steve, I do have a question regarding hell. I guess my picture of hell is one of weeping, gnashing of teeth, darkness and of fire. This seems to be the picture painted by Jesus in Mt 8 and 13. It seemed that you were painting a picture of hell being a place where God’s goodness has been completely withdrawn. Where in scripture do you get this picture of hell? I’m not suggesting that the above description of fire and darkness doesn’t match that, but so say that hell is only a place where God’s goodness has been completely withdrawn doesn’t seem to really match the descriptions in Mt 8 and 13. To me hell seems to be a place whereby God eternally punishes and tortures those who have rejected his offer of salvation for the punishment for their sins.
Romans 1: 18-32 ?
Thanks David. It’s probably best to think of these ideas as two sides of the same coin… the fire and punishment and agony of hell is the flipside of the withdrawal of his presence and love. You can see the two ideas together in a verse such as 2 Thessalonians 1:9, “They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power”. God’s judgement has always involved a removal of people from his presence (the Fall in Genesis 3, Israel’s Exile in 2 Kings 24) but in the final judgment that reality will be more horrible than we can imagine. Trev is right to point to Romans 1:18-32 where God’s wrath is described as God handing over people to the godless life they have chosen. I guess what I was emphasising in the talk is that, until hell, that is only felt partially in this fallen world – but what a horror when it is felt in it’s totality and God finally shuts out people from his love … which can only mean agony, torture and so forth. So we should not think of hell as simply a continuation of the pain of this world but something far far worse when God’s common grace and love and goodness is tasted no more…
David, your view of God says that he is a torturer. How do you reconcile torture with love and mercy? If our God – Jesus – is a torturer, why don’t we own up to it and preach this honestly to the world? And how is a torturer God different from the devil?
Hi Wendy I don’t think Dave is saying that at all,He was asking for more info on what Steve had said in the talk which is one of the things I admire in Dave that he is willing to ask on the site and maybe someone else was not quite sure.
It might pay to read Steve’s answer to Daves question. I am sure Dave agree’s with Steve’s clarification on his question.
I’d like to know what your answer to as you said “If our God – Jesus – is a torturer, why don’t we own up to it and preach this honestly to the world? And how is a torturer God different from the devil?” before I answer this question.
Thanks
Hi Wendy. Thanks for your question. It may seem hard to reconcile a how God could be merciful, loving and yet punish people. However, if God is just and righteous, he just can’t look at our rebellion against him and just say “It doesn’t really matter, it wasn’t really anything”. Just as we would want justice done to people who break the law, so our holy God is also just and demands justice for our evil ways. God doesn’t want to punish us, so in love he decided to send his Son Jesus to be punished in our place. That way he his justice is still being met – somebody had to be punished for our rebellious livestyle against him. God patiently offers us a lifetime to turn to him and receive this gift of not being punished for our rebellion against him. However, if we fail to admit we need his merciful offer of Jesus taking our punishment for us and his right to rule our lives, then his justice demands that we have to pay the price for our lifelong rebellion against him. Then we shall rightly be put in the hell that Steve and I discussed above.
Hi David – thanks for your considered reply. I agree with what you have said entirely.
However, there is a lot more to this question than can really be discussed in a forum like this. I questioned what you had said because this is a public forum where non- believers can read our comments, and I have heard non-believers use the very words you used, about God torturing people eternally, to say that therefore he is not a god of love and mercy.
A few years ago some Canadian friends of mine went to the funeral of a 16 year old boy, son of some friends of theirs. He had died by suicide, and the Lutheran minister got up and said that this young boy was now suffering in hell for ever as he deserved.
My friends came away from that feeling utterly repelled by and horrified about Christianity as a result.
It certainly wasn’t the “good news” of the Gospel that they took away with them.
If you want to talk about any of this any further, I’m happy to do that after church some time.
Thanks again for your reply.
Thanks for your reply Wendy. If’d you’d like a chat, I’d be happy to talk after church sometime.