Talk 6, Family work

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9 comments on “Talk 6, Family work
  1. David says:

    Re DNA question 5. How on earth does verse 23 (see below) contribute to the flow of Paul’s thought (best answer wins a bottle of wine)?!

    5:17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. 18 For Scripture says, “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain,” and “The worker deserves his wages.” 19 Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20 But those elders who are sinning you are to reprove before everyone, so that the others may take warning. 21 I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism. 22 Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, and do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure. 23 Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses. 24 The sins of some are obvious, reaching the place of judgment ahead of them; the sins of others trail behind them. 25 In the same way, good deeds are obvious, and even those that are not obvious cannot remain hidden forever.

    My answer to the above question is:
    5:17 says that Elders (of whom Timothy would be one) is worthy of “double honor”, however, some in the church have abandoned the faith and are following deceiving spirits and things taught by demons (4:1). They are ordering people in the church (maybe including Timothy) to abstain from certain foods (maybe including wine), which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. Paul says in 4:4 that everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer (4:5).

    Timothy may be bowing to pressure from these false teachers and trying to be “pure” by not drinking ANY wine, even though a little may be helpful for his stomach and frequent illnesses (5:17). Jesus himself was called a glutton and a drunkard, yet he said that wisdom is vindicated by her children (Luke 7:34-35). Likewise, Paul is saying to Timothy that his good deeds can not be hidden forever (5:17) and by drinking a little wine he will show that he is being pure and self controlled. Drinking a little wine may help Timothy’s health and help him to carry out his teaching ministry.

    Paul says that Timothy should labor and strive (4:10), because they have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who BELIEVE (as apposed to trying to be saved through abstaining from certain foods like wine). In 4:11 Timothy is told to command and teach these things and to set an example for the believers in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith and in purity (4:12).

    The other thing that may also be happening is that some Elders ARE getting drunk by drinking too much wine, so Timothy needs to rebuke them publicly (5:20). The false teachers may be reacting by saying that everyone (including Timothy) needs to abstain from wine completely. Thus there is a warning to Timothy no to be too hasty in appointing people as Elders (5:22) and watching to see the fruit of their lives (5:25), which may included drunkenness. Timothy is warned not to join in the sins of others, which may include getting drunk with others (5:22).

  2. Trevor Voltz says:

    Well wine has been used for centuries as a disinfectant to clean wounds (Luke 10:34)34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him.
    I think it Paul saying hey look after yourself, one of those ways is drinking a little wine to help whatever aliment/infection you have.

  3. Trevor Voltz says:

    Just a few verse on why pastors receive wages from Corinthians i found interesting
    1 Corinthians 9 (NIV)

    9 Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not the result of my work in the Lord? 2 Even though I may not be an apostle to others, surely I am to you! For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.

    3 This is my defense to those who sit in judgment on me. 4 Don’t we have the right to food and drink? 5 Don’t we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas[a]? 6 Or is it only I and Barnabas who lack the right to not work for a living?

    7 Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat its grapes? Who tends a flock and does not drink the milk? 8 Do I say this merely on human authority? Doesn’t the Law say the same thing? 9 For it is written in the Law of Moses: “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain.” Is it about oxen that God is concerned? 10 Surely he says this for us, doesn’t he? Yes, this was written for us, because whoever plows and threshes should be able to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest. 11 If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you? 12 If others have this right of support from you, shouldn’t we have it all the more?

    But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ.

    13 Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

    15 But I have not used any of these rights. And I am not writing this in the hope that you will do such things for me, for I would rather die than allow anyone to deprive me of this boast. 16 For when I preach the gospel, I cannot boast, since I am compelled to preach. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel! 17 If I preach voluntarily, I have a reward; if not voluntarily, I am simply discharging the trust committed to me. 18 What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make full use of my rights as a preacher of the gospel.

  4. The DNA that meets @ the workers Club says:

    1 Timothy 5:23 Paul told Timothy to stop drinking water and to drink a little wine, as there was no fluoride in the water.
    Γεια (Cheers)

  5. Trevor Voltz says:

    The DNA that meets @ the workers Club moderation is more than little 🙂

  6. Kylie Hamilton says:

    How does verse 23 fit? I believe that Paul is reminding Timothy that all things God created is good 4:4 (and yes God created wine through Jesus (John 2:8-9)). Paul is worried about Timothy being an extremist and misleading people about true faith 4:3 -to abstain from certain foods. At the end of verse 22 it says “keep yourself pure”. Pure meaning pure of heart, good conscience and sincere faith 1:5 which comes from love. Not through your own physical works and sacrifices, but through your spiritual works and godliness 4:7-8.This then continues on into verse 24 and 25 which explains how your deeds whether good or evil will become obvious and out in the open for all to see.

    • Trevor Voltz says:

      Making a hypocritical show of religious devotion or Pure meaning pure of heart, good conscience and sincere faith. like your answer Kylie

  7. Charlene Hamilton says:

    About 1Timothy 5:23:
    Paul writes to Timothy verse 23 (have a little wine);
    …‘ 23 Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.’…
    to deter Timothy from extremist behaviour as shown by the ‘later times’ in 1 Timothy 4:1-5 this is to teach Timothy about balance as it seems that Timothy is already abstaining from wine with his frequent illnesses.

    The whole letter is all about balance highlighting extremes in behaviour throughout to teach him to still do things but to show restraint whilst doing them.

    The reason that v23 is placed right after 22 even though literary speaking it still flows without it there into v24 is this – v22 is teaching ‘Keep pure’ and this verse could be in reference to drunkenness so DON’T GET DRUNK and to ‘balance’ that teaching straight away Paul teaches DON’T NOT DRINK v23 as Timothy is already struggling in that area.

    So even though Paul could have removed v 23 (with what may seem very little impact) or have placed it somewhere else in the letter – it may not make a big deal of difference or sense to us whereas it may have made a vast deal of difference to Timothy’s decision making if it wasn’t written right where it was.

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